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Speaking of duplicate events, yesterday's Gottschee/Marlboro match was also counted towards the EDP league. So Gottschee's win has paved the way for EB to capture the league crown with wins over TSF and Ironbound in their final two games.
No wonder the EB contingent were smiling as they walked to the parking lot yesterday afternoon!
Two upset winners although not total shocks. Princeton Black beats Pachuca in the top flight and NJ Force beats Stallions 99/00 in the 2nd tier final. Congrats NJ!
Assuming EBSC wins out and so does Princeton Black, the EDP standings will be...
As for season end rankings, it looks really tight. I assume the duplicated CJYSA points get eliminated as they should be. Princeton Black made a huge push to reclaim the NJ #1 ranking they began the fall with and lost to Gottschee with their win at MAPS Challenge. Unfortunately, it looks like Gottschee will retain the season end #1 ranking thanks to their semi-finals win at MAPS Challenge. I caution that the current rankings are completely out of whack right now due to the CJYSA points and the daily fluctuation in EDP league results. When that settles down it looks like Gottschee will be a mere 250 points or so ahead of Princeton Black. It is so close, any deviation in estimates could change this, but right now...
Clarifying. PB did not lose #1 in NJ to Gottschee at the MAPS Challenge. They lost it earlier in the fall and came within a hair's breath of reclaiming it at MAPS Challenge. We will see.
Not to be an "I told you soer," but I had an odd premonition about not counting black out.
And maybe the CJYSA points don't go away? I tend to doubt this two as non-NJ teams will have to spot it at some point and ask what the heck is going on. But crazier things have happened.
I also think Princeton Black ended up with a good draw this weekend in that Pachuca looked hell-bent on revenging their 4-0 loss to Gottschee Roma at Spirit Utd. in August and probably spent themselves (both physically and emotionally) in their morning match.
Hard to criticize a Black team that got better as the weekend went on. They deserved their win. If the rumors are true though, it will be hard for them to fire their coach after winning this week.
This PB win won't keep that team together. Rumor has it the coach is an /&)@hole, so kids will be leaving soon. I'd be surprised if that team stays together and returns in the Spring!
I believe they have a parent coach/manager but the 'head' coach is a paid trainer. His name is no relation to the players so I assume he isn't related?... Will be interesting to see if they stick with the trainer that got them to this point or get rid of him at the first opportunity.
Maybe not, but they still get semi-finalist points...perhaps a little more than Gottschee who won the semi-finals match. They came within 1 goal of the finals and EDP is theirs to win now as opposed to being listed in 6th place or so just over a week ago. Not bad for one weekend!
C'mon EB parent, you team is good, but bringing guest players to the tournaments just to get points is not acceptable, I know your allow to do it but what message you are giving to the kids from you own team or maybe is because somebody is trying to get "Coach of the year"
Funny how things seem to ebb and flow with this age group.
Back in early August Gottschee played a scrimmage with a tired EBSC team (who'd already played that morning) and it was (almost) all Gottschee. Next, Gottschee went to Spirit Utd. and beat up Pachuca. A week after that EB exacted some pretty serious revenge by drubbing Gottschee at the Marlboro tourney.
Now, 4 months later, Pachuca has returned the whooping favor to Gottschee as well. But then Gottschee bounced right back in the afternoon with a close win over EBSC (with PKs preventing a draw). So maybe the next Gottschee/Pachuca match will be a close one too? Or maybe one of them will smoke the other?
And then to top it all off, Pachuca got whacked in the final yesterday by a Princeton Black team that they drew with just last month.
So I'm done with predicting winners between the better teams in this age group as I there doesn't appear to be any consistency between them. That, and the fact that the Den of Lions are the State Cup champs makes any efforts at "expert opinion" nothing more than educated guessing!
And I even forgot that EBSC and Gottschee played a draw in September as well. My guess is one of them blasts the other next time, and I have no idea who that will be!
All this means is that the top teams will always compete and play close matches. There will be a couple games where either team is off, but I would not consider this inconsistency.
They are all tough teams with talented players, and we should be thankful that its this way. Having one team consistently blowing out the competition would not help any of these team's develop. You'll be amazed at the respect many of these players have for each other.
Some players like to talk smack before, during and after games, but it's just their way of getting into the heads of the opponent to get that extra edge.
Results at this age group will continue to go back and forth. As someone previously mentioned, the top teams will find ways to replenish their points throughout the year and the teams that either "got lucky" or played easy venues for the sole purpose of collecting pints will fall like a rock.
"Back in early August Gottschee played a scrimmage with a tired EBSC team (who'd already played that morning) and it was (almost) all Gottschee. Next, Gottschee went to Spirit Utd. and beat up Pachuca. A week after that EB exacted some pretty serious revenge by drubbing Gottschee at the Marlboro tourney."
In the August game, it looked like that EB did not bring their first team to the Gottschee scrimmage, but brought them out to the Marlboro tourney, hence the speculation that EB brings in guest players to play in tourneys to win their games. Even if they were new players just picked up for the season, why not play them in a scrimmage?
"And I even forgot that EBSC and Gottschee played a draw in September as well. My guess is one of them blasts the other next time, and I have no idea who that will be!"
Looks like they're pretty evenly matched - with or without guest players.
"All this means is that the top teams will always compete and play close matches. There will be a couple games where either team is off, but I would not consider this inconsistency.
They are all tough teams with talented players, and we should be thankful that its this way. Having one team consistently blowing out the competition would not help any of these team's develop. You'll be amazed at the respect many of these players have for each other."
Agree with this completely. These are 13-14 year olds - all will have an off day at some point or other - just like adults. And trash talking one team because they lost unexpectedly to another team does not help them develop either.
So we were having an engaging debate during down time over the weekend. If you were to throw out points and such, where would NJ rank if the top 5 non-academy teams (whoever you think they may be) played in a Nation wide tournament versus every other state's top 5 non-academy teams? After much debate we settled on at least somewhere between 5th and 10th among states like CA, FL, TX, IL, GA, OH, MI, VA and NY.
What fun would this forum be if we didn't trash talk other teams?
As for how NJ ranks I think we would fall in right behind the 365 days of sunshine states Texas, Florida and California. Other than Chicago and Detroit you can discount the entire midwest. All of the other states may have a couple good teams but not as solid a top five as have in my opinion.
There seem to be a surprisingly good number of very strong teams from Georgia. Not a lot of points, but some very good results when they play outside their state.
A couple of very good teams from CT. But not enough of them to get into a top 5 team argument.
That is silly. Our team played EBSC this weekend and they did not have any guest players that I saw. I wouldn't vote for anyone other than our coach, but I wouldn't debate the claim that their coach is "coach of the year" either.
Why is having a guest player not acceptable? Every team's situation is different. Up to 5 guest players ARE acceptable under the rules for MAPS and EDP Cup tourneys. A good team will adjust to the challenge from new players.
Only speaking from personal experience, but my kids' teams have never had a guest player that improved the play of the team. It's usually a compromise. If you are the club's top team, how are you bringing in someone that is better than the existing players that have played and practiced together for years?
If guest players suddenly become the most dangerous players on the field, regardless of what the rules allow, this does not seem fair.
OK...I see. Our guest players strictly come from other teams within the club, so these would always be lower level or younger. The only way this would be a positive thing would be if a younger player was especially talented or gifted.
What is the goal of bringing someone outside the club? Recruiting and bragging rights? Can't be development. How can a player guest if rostered with another club?
Every situation is different. You are really likely to get a guest player when you have less than 13 or 14 on game day. The extra sub or two can make a big difference when playing 3-4 matches in a 2 day span.
Also, you might do it if a player is available that could become the most dangerous in a certain position. That was probably true for EBSC in early season tournaments. They did not have guests this past weekend or after Labor Day. I disagree that it is unfair. It is allowed in the rules and every team has the chance to do the same thing under the rules so what could me more fair? If you told me your team didn't have the same opportunity under the rules or that the rule was designed to inherently favor one team much more than another then I would say it is unfair. In point of fact though, every team is allowed the same number of guest players and that doesn't seem biased in favor of any one team!
You are making a blanket statement that is not clearly true. Perhaps improving a weak or missing link makes the team more competitive and that could benefit the chemistry for all and be a great development opportunity? The guest player rule is good because many teams are town teams or smaller clubs w/o an A and B team mentioned above. They are inherently at a disadvantage to bigger clubs who see more recruits and carry bigger rosters. The absence of guest players would be inherently unfair.
"What is the goal of bringing (players) from outside the club?" Isn't that obvious? I listed two likely reasons above.
"How can a player guest if rostered with another club?" Simple. It is allowed in the rules and there is a procedure to follow to do that.
you just said that it will help the town teams or smaller teams compete with the top teams in the state, but what about the top teams bringing guest players at the tournaments, is because they are chasing points, trying to stay in the top 5? How the kids from this team that is ranked amongst the best in the country will react when they see that somebody else will be playing just for that weekend in the spot that He is training very hard all year around.
Testimony to the last post. My son's team has had a couple guest players in the past. The first was an October tournament. I believe we had 17 on the roster at the time and one of our boys couldn't make it so the coach pulled in a "ringer". Turns out he wasn't the player even the coach thought he was yet was eating up playing time of the other 16 kids. Everyone was pissed. Especially since it didn't help us win anything and we never heard from the kid again.
Second time was an early May tournament. Similar situation, different kid. He played decent but basically he was playing with the understanding that he would most likely be trying out to play on the team the next year. Well, he's still on the team. In both cases, it didn't help the team much but in the second, the players and parents were a little more understanding because you knew it was for the future instead of just about winning for the moment.
Based on those experiences, if it was a fall tournament and it took playing/development time away from a current player (which it always does) I would be very upset. If it was late spring and the season was wrapping up, I still wouldn't be overly happy but I can see the point of it.
My son has been through the guest experience on just about all levels...he's had guests join his team to help pad a thin squad and has also had real impact players come for a visit. On the flip side, he's also been a guest himself in both of these capacities. After watching all this, I see both clear positives and real negatives to guests.
My crazy idea is that all guests should have to come from a younger age group. This wouldn't stop teams from padding a short roster with some temporary help. But it would lessen the possibility of an "impact" guest having a significant influence on a game's/tournament's result.
Would a guest player even fit into a team with really good chemistry and a well trained scheme? You can't imagine a guest playing on Barcelona can you?
With all due respect to the boys and their coaches, I haven't seen any teams in this age group playing with such a well trained and complex scheme that a capable guest couldn't blend in rather seamlessly.
My son's received on field instruction by some players on the good teams he's guested with. For teams that know they must talk, it's not that hard for a capable player to get in step pretty quickly.
What happened to PDA Rooney? They haven't been relevant in almost a year. I assume they will get smoked by Princeton Black this weekend. That will leave them near the bottom of EDP and well out of the top 10 in NJ. What's going on?
The Year End GS#1 ranking for NJ is still in doubt as we head towards Thanksgiving!
But the picture now looks a little clearer and the result appears to hinge on two factors. The first of these is the result of the final EDP league match between Princeton Black and PDA Rooney and the other is whether GotSoccer is going to keep or do away with the point awards they've made for the CJYSA league.
If Princeton Black can beat Rooney and the CJYSA points stay, they will finish the year as NJ's #1.
But if Black stubs their toe against PDA (and the CJYSA points stay), then EBSC will end the season on top.
But if the CJYSA points go away (which we all know would be the right thing to do), then Gottschee will finish first.
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with these CJYSA points as they affect more than just NJ teams. For example, Baltimore Celtic has pushed up to #3 in the country on the wings of nearly 11,000 double dip points from EDP and CYJSA.
How about East Brunswick? They are up to #6 in the nation and #1 in NJ with the double dip points when they should be a few thousand behind Princeton and Gottschee just in NJ (both of whom beat them last weekend).
You're right. These CJYSA points are distorting the national rankings! Does anyone know why it exists? It looks like the CJYSA league exists only on paper. There were no separate games for CJYSA. They just double counted a subset of EDP games and called it a separate league. That shouldn't get points awards.
8,000 point flight value for CJYSA? ...and I don't even have to play any extra games for it? It's raining points and they're free!
How can I carve out a whole new league from some of my games for spring and get the points? I think I could come up with a better name than CJYSA too. How about the DOGS (Dupe On Got Soccer) League? In fact, why stop at one extra league? I want to carve out 2 or 3 more and really max out our points. Seriously...who can help me?
I've been recently correcting fellow parents that our boys are top "X" in the nation in points. Not necessarily the "X" best team in the nation. There's a big difference. Stupid things like this CJYSA double point counting just validates my point even more.
I'lll start by stating that I'm NOT an EBSC parent.
EB's loss to Princeton and Gotschee last week does not mean they are inferior or should not rank higher. The points system is only ONE measure of a team's performance and is more reflective of a team's ability to consistently win games and tournaments which award points. Teams who can do this consistently usually have the talent to continue to win and therefore gain GS points.
Does winning the state cup make DOL better than any of the top 5 teams in the state?
I don't think so......
So don't translate one loss or two losses to a team not deserving a higher rank.
Nobody said they are inferior. EBSC is double counting almost 5K points and that is why they do not deserve a higher rank.
I'll flip that around. Do you really think all these teams double counting points deserve their recently inflated national rank? Other teams across the nation don't get points for two leagues when they only played one set of games. Is EBSC really #6 in the country based on strength of play? Or Marlboro #10...Gottschee Roma #12? They're all good, but that's still a bit of a stretch.
November 13, 2013 at 10:31 PM "With their bracket in the top flight at the Bethesda tournament including VA's Arlington Eagles and MD's Olney Rangers (along with a team from IL), am I the only one thinking the Gunners may be in for some very tough turkey this Thanksgiving?"
At least the 2nd flight in Bethesda is looking good for NJ!
TSF needs just a draw with Loudoun Red tomorrow to get through to the final. And there's a good chance they'll get either Mt. Olive or Princeton Orange there if they do. An all NJ final would be nice, even if it is the 2nd flight.
And in the 3rd flight Morris Utd. (remember them?) is on track to reach the final.
With Princeton Black's win over PDA in the books, the year end GS #1 picture now hinges only on the inclusion (or exclusion?) of the CJYSA "league" points.
If I've got this right, CJYSA points included would leave Princeton Black at #1 with EBSC 2nd and Gottschee 3rd.
If CJYSA is taken out then it looks like Gottschee first, PB second and EB third.
So I think it's down to just Princeton and Gottschee at this point with Marlboro finishing 4th regardless.
Looks like there'll be a new #1 in the National Ranks once the Bethesda tournament is awarded.
How good are the Arlington Eagles?
They blew through the top flight this weekend with only the IL team playing them close. And their 4-0 bashing of Fewster in the final was the exclamation point!
This team won at Delco, were semi-finalists at the Capital Cup, won the top flight at the EDP Cup and have now won at Bethesda. That's one heck of a fall season!
The CJYSA League points situation sure is an inconsistent mess!
If you take a look at the Gunners you will see that they are currently receiving a "double dip" of EDP 2nd Division points along with CJYSA points. But the other Stallions team (99/00 Boys), who are in the same EDP Division, are only getting EDP points and none for CJYSA.
Mount Olive, who are not in EDP, are playing in MAPS (which is also being duplicated as a CJYSA league). And while they are 1st in their CJYSA league (flight value of 2188), they have not been awarded any of the 1727 points that are listed as available to them for this.
To top it all off, a number of bonus points for EDP wins and draws have not been awarded properly. EBSC and Marlboro are each due 10 points for unrewarded draws. Princeton Black has 50 points due for a win and 2 draws. And Gottschee has all 110 points they earned for 3 wins and 2 draws due.
I've got to think that GS will eventually delete the CJYSA points from EDP teams and that the bonus points will eventually be straightened out. And assuming these both come to pass, here are what I think will be the final totals for the Top 4 on December 31:
1 / BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99 / 24299 2 / PRINCETON FC BLACK / 23444 3 / EAST BRUNSWICK UNITED FC / 21131 4 / MARLBORO SA GALAXY BLUE / 18111
And I'd like to add that just beyond the top four would be the Stallions Academy 99/00's. As the only team in the current top 10 not receiving double points due to the EDP/CJYSA they are the most harmed in the rani9hgs. According to my calculations the double dip by all others is costing them 5th place. If you removed all the CJYSA points from the eight teams ranked above them they'd easily be at #5. Not bad for a team ranked somewhere around 35+ just more than a year ago. Too look at their win-loss record against great, good, and average teams I guess I see why.
So EBSC played again over last weekend at the Lower Merion tournament? And got nothing out of it?
This one was well off my radar. But it looks like Lower Merion ran an event with 10 U14 teams (well, 9 U14 teams and 1 U13 squad) all in one bracket. Two groups of 3 and a third group of 4? And then they put their own team in a group of 3 along with Pachuca and EBSC? I guess no one can accuse them of taking the easy route, eh?
EBSC drew with both Pachuca and Lower Merion before pounding the U13 boys in a consolation match.
Pachuca was the real winner though, beating Northport in the final and pushing themselves up to #8 in the country with the 6,200 point bonanza!
This is the same tournament that the Gunners cashed in on last fall. The U13s chip in to keep the flight values so high, making Lower Merion the capital of "Low Hanging Fruit!"
Too bad the draw they got raised the branch too high for EBSC!
Turns out EBSC did get something out of the Lower Merion tournament. Not only did the gett 20 bonus points for their two draws against U14 teams, but they totaled an "impressive" 405 points for beating up on the U13 boys. 300 for a 200+ Pts. opponent, 75 for beating a state champ and 30 for winning the game.
Points earned by beating younger age groups have always been wrong in my book.
And over time, I bet they will. GotSoccer is a work in progress that is off to a very good start in my eyes. A lot of improvements have already been implemented and I expect many more are to come.
In the future, I'm guessing teams that play up a year will do so only with a percentage of their points applied. This pertains to both in flighting and bonus points as well.
It just ain't right for a U 14 team to move up in the GS rankings because they whooped a U13 team!
If teams playing up feel they can compete, why should they be treated differently?
Teams that play up usually are top in their age group and can beat many teams in the older age group. However, if they face teams in the older bracket who are top in that age bracket, they will get whooped.
They want to play with the big boys, then let them put up points into the tournament pool!
Would you say it's fair that a top ranked younger team beat up on a low ranked older bracket team?
Highly ranked Team A goes to a tournament featuring many of the top ranked teams in their age group and strings together 4 tough wins to earn the championship.
Highly ranked Team B manages to nudge their way into a tournament featuring a few highly ranked teams playing up from a younger age groups. Team B pounds their younger competition (as they should based on their age advantage) and wins one tough match against their own age group to win the championship.
Both teams earn the same reward for their victories.
You think this is petty?
I think this is a serious flaw in GS's methods and considerably lessens the reliability of their rankings.
Regarding younger teams playing up against competition they can handle, who cares? It's has no negative effect on GS rankings and has nothing to do with the concern.
Maybe it was a lucky bonanza a year ago, but if you missed the same opportunity this year then that's your problem. No luck involved. EBSC and Pachuca didn't miss the chance!
It's not about taking advantage of the opportunity or missing a chance to do so. It's about GS's failure to properly deal with highly ranked teams playing up by treating them as though they've earned their accomplishments at the older age group's level. The mistake is GS's, not any of the teams that are able to take advantage of it.
And the solution could be as simple as dividing points earned by a younger team in half when they play up (with no bonus points awarded to older teams for beating them).
This would allow younger teams to benefit from playing up and beating older teams but would lessen the impact younger teams have on a flight's value as well as the benefit older teams earn from beating them.
I was just going to make a comment on how EBSC is the new #1 and how short lived Princeton Black's stay at the top spot was (~1 day). I guess things are changing too fast to even keep up with comments on it. The rankings have changed yet again. Who will be #1 next week?
NJ Stallions 99/00 in the top 5. That is an awesome fall for those guys! ...and they just lost to NJ Force Arsenal at MAPS Challenge who breaks into the top 10 for season end. Also fantastic. We have a fair number of new names in the top 10 this fall replacing some of the old U12,U13 benchmarks. Aside from EBSC and Marlboro who keep impressively chugging forward, I think 8 out of 10 are new names in the top 10 this year.
Most of the GS points for the top teams were achieved over the summer when these teams were playing against poor summer select teams. Don't put much credit in the rankings.
"Most of the GS points for the top teams were achieved over the summer when these teams were playing against poor summer select teams. Don't put much credit in the rankings."
Where did you come up with this? Did you just make it up? Cause it's definitely well off the mark for the top 4 teams (at least).
Gottschee earned some points this past July and August beating teams like LDC, SJEB, Pachuca and Baltimore Celtic.
Princeton Black earned some by beating teams like Haddonfield, SJEB, Gottschee Roma and LDC.
EBSC and Marlboro earned some at their own tourneys in August beating up on each other as well as teams like Gottschee and the Gunners.
Besides, "poor summer select teams" don't offer much to flight values so they actually limit the amount of points to be earned.
I saw all four of these teams play at least two or three times this past July and August and can assure you that none of them spent their summer mopping up weak competition.
10:22 you are incorrect. Yes they might have played 1 of those teams in their journey to points but played 2 sometimes 3 summer select teams to get to the championship. In addition, most of the time they played with guest players. Summer points should not count or at least we should all recognize that the GS rankings are a skewed mess.
Perhaps you can identify some of the "summer select" teams you are referring to. And please do point out occasions where any of these teams played 2 or 3 of them on their way to tournament championships. Take a look at the teams who were at the Mid Atlantic (where Gottschee and Princeton Black played) or at Spirit Utd. where these two and EBSC played. Are you trying to claim these were filled with weak teams? And you seem to be missing the point regarding a team's contributions to flight values. If a tournament is filled with weak teams, there's not much reward for a strong one.
Your thought about guest players may hold some water for some of these teams. Particularly PB and EBSC. But that's the nature of most tournaments these days so I can't see why the summer months would be any different.
And the GS rankings are what they are, regardless of the time of year. I understand if you don't appreciate them. But singling out the summer as the sole reason they don't appeal to you seems way off base to me.
I agree with the last commenter that you can't pluck out certain summer tournaments and say they're not valid. As for GS overall, it's become more of a regional tool than a national one. It's tough to compare teams from states where the top team doesn't even have 1000 points. Here in NJ we're point hogs and we all know it.
We're point hogs in this region because the NYE, NJ, PAE and MD areas with a multitude of tournaments that were the first to buy into GotSoccer big time. And because GS's system awards high team point totals with high flight values when we play each other, the system perpetuates itself quite healthily here.
So yes, I'd agree that GS's value is regional at best but may not even extend beyond the 4 states mentioned above. Well, maybe CT too.
.....and VA. Oh and maybe CA south and north too. ...and...are you serious?
Basically anywhere there is a concentration of youth soccer, there will be significant gotsoccer points. That makes sense. It's a pretty good system. Before it every team claimed some victory or accomplishment on their team website. There was little to no way to tell what that meant among hundreds of events. Now it is much clearer. I would argue GS is far and away the best system there is.
Of course there are other areas of concentration. But not to the degree we have here.
Of the 15 teams with "Diamond" status (20,000 points or more) nationally, 3 are from NJ. NYE and MD also have 3 each. VA has a pair and both PAE and CT have 1 each.
In other words, 13 of the 15 top ranked teams in the country come from our part of the country. And 19 of the top 25 come from MA down to VA.
So I think it's pretty clear that the NE is the area with the most GS buy in. That may even out over time, but this clearly hasn't happened yet.
One more point about GS's regional vs. national relevance:
Believe it or not, Region 3 which stretches from the Carolinas down to Florida and west to Texas and Oklahoma is the most populated of the 4 national regions. So I would think there are plenty of youth soccer players there. FC Dallas has a team that is ranked 3rd in Region 3 and that may well be very fair. But this same team is also ranked 67th in the country and I think we all know that doesn't sound right.
GS is a good approach to ranking teams on the state and maybe even regional levels. But definitely not on the national level
That isn't a fault in gotsoccer per se. It just reflects the fact that youth soccer is almost entirely regional. How many national events did your team play this year? Maybe they could bump the value of really good teams with less regional competition. That is hard. I'm not sure how you would do it.
Has the dust finally settled? It looks like the best team in NJ at this age group is Gottschee Roma! Congrats to them for getting and holding their #1 ranking.
Serious? Above it all? Gottschee isn't undefeated or close to that mark and even if a team is undefeated I would be hard pressed to say they are above anyone. That's not what I am saying at all.
I am just congratulating a team on a great year. They have been the best of 2013 and earned the #1 spot over some tough competition and they started the year from well outside the top 10 . Now that winter ball is here again I remember comments on this board last winter pooh poohing Gottschee Roma's wins against Millburn and EBSC and a Redbull and TSF team as meaningless. I think it's safe to say those comments were wrong.
Funny you remember the arguments about those indoor tournaments last winter (although those debates were on the old board as this one didn't exist at the time.)
But yes, some folks were saying those indoor 7v7 results against quality teams were a sign that Gottschee would be a team to be reckoned with in 2013. And there were plenty of naysayers claiming these results meant absolutely nothing and that anyone who thought they might was an idiot.
I'm was quite happy to have been an "idiot" back then and remain so today!
It was quite a year though with the rise of Gottschee, the fall of the Titans and Rooney, the invasion of Princeton Black, the changing of the guard for the Stallions, the rise and fall of Ironbound, the returns of EBSC and Marlboro, the howl of the Back Dawgs and the incredible Den of Lions State Cup win.
I'm sure there are plenty of other developments, but these are the ones that come to mind first for me.
Funny because every other team brought guest players and NJstallions didnt get to bring are full team due to rules. They lost all three games in the last 2 minutes against teams you guys would probably get your ass kicked. But while we're playng in florida in 80 degree weather you're in your basement making comments about our team anonomyously.
Well it looks like all the NJ teams are out in our age group. Parsippany made it to the semis, but lost to Gottschee Super Y. NJ Stallions and Cedar Stars did not make it out of group stage. Overall, our region is showing well. Cedar Stars are in the U12 finals. Gottschee is in the U13 and U14 finals.
Gottschee wins the U13 and U14 Boys Super Y championships in FL. Congrats!
Now that they are awarding points for the Super Y League Finals it looks like Gottschee and Parsippany have a fair amount of points coming their way. Many of these Super Y teams are a mix of teams and do not have any points to be had. For example, at U12 it doesn't look like much of any teams bring points other than Cedar Stars so CSA may not get anything for making it to the finals. At our age group, U13, a lot of regular teams, mostly from our area, did go and they should bring a lot of points with them. Parsippany, TSF, NJ Stallions, Patriot FC, Gottschee.
This could completely change the landscape of Super Y for 2014! It will be interesting to watch.
U12 (players born on/after 8/1/00) U13 (players born on/after 8/1/99) U14 (players born on/after 8/1/98) U15 (players born on/after 8/1/97) U16 (players born on/after 8/1/96) U17 (players born on/after 8/1/95)
Just to clear any confusion. Super Y is not based on calendar year. They run the same dates that club teams do, but our U14 is U13 for them.
That's because this is primarily a summer league. You know that time when most players take off and spend time with their families? GS for this will change the whole landscape of this into another super competitive venture and ruin it.
Most of the teams across the country that do this coble teams together from players in their area who are interested in playing a little over the summer. In my opinion, comparing these summer rec teams to the full squads during the season are comparing apples and oranges. Ridiculous.
Thanks for the clarification on the Super Y ages. I think I got confused because the NYCSL league that Parsippany plays in is based on calendar year.
So does this mean that the pre-August 99's that play for Parsippany (assuming they have some) were not eligible for the Super Y competition? That would be a weird situation I think, to tell some of your players that your entering into a competition they too old to play in?
I really think they ought to get rid of the August - July set up across the board and go with calendar years for al age groups.
Isn't the Queens academy players the same Gottschee team? They're based in Queens, NY, so if they use the academy players, then that's the same club? And if I understand correctly, this is not a regular team; it's a team made up of players to play in the 'summer league'. so how can they be 'guest players'?
I think the team they had in the summer had a few academy players on it, but in no way was it the academy team. Like most Super Y, it was a mix of different teams just from the same club in their case.
As for Parsippany, I think they were there with a few age groups including the next year up at U14. I'm sure the crossover kids (Jan -Aug 99) just played with the older team.
summer is the time to be with your families is what a poster wrote. True, it is, and some of the best memories I have with my son are at and after these tournaments. Sooooooo, your point?
10:55PM. They did have a few academy players in summer. Just wasn't an academy team. That is not wrong. Maybe they did look different in FL. It happens I guess. Look at PDA. They won last year's NPL championship at U13 by bringing a player down from another PDA team. That's one advantage of a big academy.
Spoken like a proud Gottschee parent. Enjoy the winter break because it will be a battle come spring. Did anyone see the Massapequa College Showcase last weekend? It looks like a lot more competition this year with #1 and #2 in NYE playing. A pretty good line-up especially for December! Dix Hills won after getting one of those easier byes into the finals while other group winners played each other.
There are some good indoor tourneys at our age like the one recently at TSF. Gottschee had one last weekend. The same team won both. City FC. Very talented group and good soccer to watch.
I'm curious what is going to happen during our January transfer window. Any notable player movements?
As much as many USSDA clubs try, most fall woefully short in coaching, player id, player development, player release, sticking to a philosophy. The USSDA club we are at is no different than any other more competitive club. Marginal difference in player ability. No difference in coaching. Unfortunately the USSDA moniker is more a bragging right. We often play against non-Academy teams and many times they outplay us. Better coached, better passing, smarter players, but not necessarily better players.
Looks like an interesting group forming for Annandale. 5 NJ teams so far. Any more plan on applying before the 15th?
Appears to be some good northeastern teams applied as well as teams as far away as Michigan, Ohio and Canada coming over. Top bracket or two should score well once again.
We often play against non-Academy teams and many times they outplay us. Better coached, better passing, smarter players, but not necessarily better players.
Oh really? Who are these teams that a DA would scrimmage? Been around several DAs for a very long time and have never heard of DA/non-DA scrimmages.
Sounds like we have a non-DA parent claimng to be a DA LOL!!
Seems like a trend is developing with Annandale and the Jeff Cup with more of the top NE teams going to Annandale and the Jeff Cup attracting teams from further south.
Here's the top fight at the Jeff Cup (as tweeted a few days ago):
BSM Gottschee Roma / NJ Chicago Blast Academy / IL Empire Revolution (Roc) / NYW FSA Navy / CT Lexington FC White / KY MD Rush / MD Mt. Olive / NJ Mt. Pleasant / TXN Northern Steel Bayern / PAW OCYS Purple / FL Penn Fusion / PAE Real Colorado Nat / CO Richmond Strikers / VA SYA Cardinals Rd / VA Tennessee 18 / TN WAZA FC / MI
I like how the tournament looks beyond just the points and put the best teams from around the country in this top flight. I think Jefferson is often more about good competition whereas Annandale feels like it can be more about the points.
It doesn't look like AC has their brackets out but last year 7 of their top 8 teams were from our Region. Looking at this only 3 of the 8 are. I like seeing teams facing teams they wouldn't otherwise ever get a chance to play.
TENNESSEE SC 18 (TN) OCYS 99/00B PURPLE (FL) PENN FUSION SA '99 BOYS (PAE) REAL COLORADO NATIONAL 99/00 (CO) BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99 (NJ) CHICAGO BLAST ACADEMY (IL) FSA FC U14 BOYS NAVY (CT) SC UNITED FC - MOUNT PLEASANT SCU/MP 99 ELITE (SC)
Does anyone know when they will post the brackets for the Manhattan Tourney. I don't know how you can make hotel reservations not knowing where you will be playing.
Can someone from the Manhattan Spring Kick Off please address the protocol for below freezing temperatures forecast for next weekend. Your website has a weather protocol that states temperature below 32 degrees would only allow a player to be outside for 30 minutes. The forecast is for temperatures around 25 degrees. Is there a current plan to cancel this tournament or postpone it?
So I was shocked to see most of the Manhattan tournament is cancelled due to snow on the ground. All these games are played on turf, cant they shovel, plow the fields?
Stallions seem good so far. Beat East Brunswick and then we will really know if they are the real deal! Also, Gotsoccer seems to have the fight values all at 0. This will soon change and expect some changes in the rankings!
538 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 538 of 538"The rankings system is most useful in comparing apples to apples, and for NJ it still works. "
Not so sure about that. Regardless of how it stacks NJ against the rest of the country, it still takes one "event" and duplicates most of its' value.
Speaking of duplicate events, yesterday's Gottschee/Marlboro match was also counted towards the EDP league. So Gottschee's win has paved the way for EB to capture the league crown with wins over TSF and Ironbound in their final two games.
No wonder the EB contingent were smiling as they walked to the parking lot yesterday afternoon!
Big day for Princeton Black!
Two upset winners although not total shocks. Princeton Black beats Pachuca in the top flight and NJ Force beats Stallions 99/00 in the 2nd tier final. Congrats NJ!
Assuming EBSC wins out and so does Princeton Black, the EDP standings will be...
1.EBSC
2. Marlboro
3. Haddonfield
4. Princeton Black
5. BSM Gottschee
6. TSF
7. PDA Rooney
As for season end rankings, it looks really tight. I assume the duplicated CJYSA points get eliminated as they should be. Princeton Black made a huge push to reclaim the NJ #1 ranking they began the fall with and lost to Gottschee with their win at MAPS Challenge. Unfortunately, it looks like Gottschee will retain the season end #1 ranking thanks to their semi-finals win at MAPS Challenge. I caution that the current rankings are completely out of whack right now due to the CJYSA points and the daily fluctuation in EDP league results. When that settles down it looks like Gottschee will be a mere 250 points or so ahead of Princeton Black. It is so close, any deviation in estimates could change this, but right now...
NJ U14 Rankings
1. BSM Gottschee 24.2
2. Princeton Black 23.9
3. EBSC 21.1
4. Marlboro 17.6
5. NJ Stallions 14.4
Clarifying. PB did not lose #1 in NJ to Gottschee at the MAPS Challenge. They lost it earlier in the fall and came within a hair's breath of reclaiming it at MAPS Challenge. We will see.
Not to be an "I told you soer," but I had an odd premonition about not counting black out.
And maybe the CJYSA points don't go away? I tend to doubt this two as non-NJ teams will have to spot it at some point and ask what the heck is going on. But crazier things have happened.
I also think Princeton Black ended up with a good draw this weekend in that Pachuca looked hell-bent on revenging their 4-0 loss to Gottschee Roma at Spirit Utd. in August and probably spent themselves (both physically and emotionally) in their morning match.
Hard to criticize a Black team that got better as the weekend went on. They deserved their win. If the rumors are true though, it will be hard for them to fire their coach after winning this week.
This PB win won't keep that team together. Rumor has it the coach is an /&)@hole, so kids will be leaving soon. I'd be surprised if that team stays together and returns in the Spring!
I heard some time back that the PB coach was the father of one of the players. Does anyone know if this hearsay has any truth to it?
"No wonder the EB contingent were smiling as they walked to the parking lot yesterday afternoon!"
I bet they didn't look quite as happy when they were leaving today.
I believe they have a parent coach/manager but the 'head' coach is a paid trainer. His name is no relation to the players so I assume he isn't related?...
Will be interesting to see if they stick with the trainer that got them to this point or get rid of him at the first opportunity.
"I bet they didn't look quite as happy..."
Maybe not, but they still get semi-finalist points...perhaps a little more than Gottschee who won the semi-finals match. They came within 1 goal of the finals and EDP is theirs to win now as opposed to being listed in 6th place or so just over a week ago. Not bad for one weekend!
C'mon EB parent, you team is good, but bringing guest players to the tournaments just to get points is not acceptable, I know your allow to do it but what message you are giving to the kids from you own team or maybe is because somebody is trying to get "Coach of the year"
EB parent here.....
We did not bring in guest players! They are all ours. The fact that we just picked up a new player two weeks ago does not make him a guest.
Nice try though........all games were hard fought , so congrats to PB for winning the finals.
Funny how things seem to ebb and flow with this age group.
Back in early August Gottschee played a scrimmage with a tired EBSC team (who'd already played that morning) and it was (almost) all Gottschee. Next, Gottschee went to Spirit Utd. and beat up Pachuca. A week after that EB exacted some pretty serious revenge by drubbing Gottschee at the Marlboro tourney.
Now, 4 months later, Pachuca has returned the whooping favor to Gottschee as well. But then Gottschee bounced right back in the afternoon with a close win over EBSC (with PKs preventing a draw). So maybe the next Gottschee/Pachuca match will be a close one too? Or maybe one of them will smoke the other?
And then to top it all off, Pachuca got whacked in the final yesterday by a Princeton Black team that they drew with just last month.
So I'm done with predicting winners between the better teams in this age group as I there doesn't appear to be any consistency between them. That, and the fact that the Den of Lions are the State Cup champs makes any efforts at "expert opinion" nothing more than educated guessing!
And I even forgot that EBSC and Gottschee played a draw in September as well. My guess is one of them blasts the other next time, and I have no idea who that will be!
Did anyone see the injury in the Marlboro game on Saturday?
I didn't and am wondering if there was anything sinister about it or if it was just an unfortunate accident.
All this means is that the top teams will always compete and play close matches. There will be a couple games where either team is off, but I would not consider this inconsistency.
They are all tough teams with talented players, and we should be thankful that its this way. Having one team consistently blowing out the competition would not help any of these team's develop. You'll be amazed at the respect many of these players have for each other.
Some players like to talk smack before, during and after games, but it's just their way of getting into the heads of the opponent to get that extra edge.
Results at this age group will continue to go back and forth. As someone previously mentioned, the top teams will find ways to replenish their points throughout the year and the teams that either "got lucky" or played easy venues for the sole purpose of collecting pints will fall like a rock.
"Back in early August Gottschee played a scrimmage with a tired EBSC team (who'd already played that morning) and it was (almost) all Gottschee. Next, Gottschee went to Spirit Utd. and beat up Pachuca. A week after that EB exacted some pretty serious revenge by drubbing Gottschee at the Marlboro tourney."
In the August game, it looked like that EB did not bring their first team to the Gottschee scrimmage, but brought them out to the Marlboro tourney, hence the speculation that EB brings in guest players to play in tourneys to win their games.
Even if they were new players just picked up for the season, why not play them in a scrimmage?
"And I even forgot that EBSC and Gottschee played a draw in September as well. My guess is one of them blasts the other next time, and I have no idea who that will be!"
Looks like they're pretty evenly matched - with or without guest players.
"All this means is that the top teams will always compete and play close matches. There will be a couple games where either team is off, but I would not consider this inconsistency.
They are all tough teams with talented players, and we should be thankful that its this way. Having one team consistently blowing out the competition would not help any of these team's develop. You'll be amazed at the respect many of these players have for each other."
Agree with this completely. These are 13-14 year olds - all will have an off day at some point or other - just like adults.
And trash talking one team because they lost unexpectedly to another team does not help them develop either.
So we were having an engaging debate during down time over the weekend. If you were to throw out points and such, where would NJ rank if the top 5 non-academy teams (whoever you think they may be) played in a Nation wide tournament versus every other state's top 5 non-academy teams? After much debate we settled on at least somewhere between 5th and 10th among states like CA, FL, TX, IL, GA, OH, MI, VA and NY.
Let the debate continue. Thoughts?
What fun would this forum be if we didn't trash talk other teams?
As for how NJ ranks I think we would fall in right behind the 365 days of sunshine states Texas, Florida and California. Other than Chicago and Detroit you can discount the entire midwest. All of the other states may have a couple good teams but not as solid a top five as have in my opinion.
There seem to be a surprisingly good number of very strong teams from Georgia. Not a lot of points, but some very good results when they play outside their state.
A couple of very good teams from CT. But not enough of them to get into a top 5 team argument.
7:41AM...
That is silly. Our team played EBSC this weekend and they did not have any guest players that I saw. I wouldn't vote for anyone other than our coach, but I wouldn't debate the claim that their coach is "coach of the year" either.
Why is having a guest player not acceptable? Every team's situation is different. Up to 5 guest players ARE acceptable under the rules for MAPS and EDP Cup tourneys. A good team will adjust to the challenge from new players.
Only speaking from personal experience, but my kids' teams have never had a guest player that improved the play of the team. It's usually a compromise. If you are the club's top team, how are you bringing in someone that is better than the existing players that have played and practiced together for years?
If guest players suddenly become the most dangerous players on the field, regardless of what the rules allow, this does not seem fair.
You must get bad guest players. If you have 15/16 on your roster you must know that your coach is looking to improve those last 2 roster spots.
Swapping out the 15th or 16th player on your team rarely improves the quality of it. Swapping out a starter might.
OK...I see. Our guest players strictly come from other teams within the club, so these would always be lower level or younger. The only way this would be a positive thing would be if a younger player was especially talented or gifted.
What is the goal of bringing someone outside the club? Recruiting and bragging rights? Can't be development. How can a player guest if rostered with another club?
Every situation is different. You are really likely to get a guest player when you have less than 13 or 14 on game day. The extra sub or two can make a big difference when playing 3-4 matches in a 2 day span.
Also, you might do it if a player is available that could become the most dangerous in a certain position. That was probably true for EBSC in early season tournaments. They did not have guests this past weekend or after Labor Day. I disagree that it is unfair. It is allowed in the rules and every team has the chance to do the same thing under the rules so what could me more fair? If you told me your team didn't have the same opportunity under the rules or that the rule was designed to inherently favor one team much more than another then I would say it is unfair. In point of fact though, every team is allowed the same number of guest players and that doesn't seem biased in favor of any one team!
"Can't be development."
You are making a blanket statement that is not clearly true. Perhaps improving a weak or missing link makes the team more competitive and that could benefit the chemistry for all and be a great development opportunity? The guest player rule is good because many teams are town teams or smaller clubs w/o an A and B team mentioned above. They are inherently at a disadvantage to bigger clubs who see more recruits and carry bigger rosters. The absence of guest players would be inherently unfair.
"What is the goal of bringing (players) from outside the club?"
Isn't that obvious? I listed two likely reasons above.
"How can a player guest if rostered with another club?"
Simple. It is allowed in the rules and there is a procedure to follow to do that.
you just said that it will help the town teams or smaller teams compete with the top teams in the state, but what about the top teams bringing guest players at the tournaments, is because they are chasing points, trying to stay in the top 5? How the kids from this team that is ranked amongst the best in the country will react when they see that somebody else will be playing just for that weekend in the spot that He is training very hard all year around.
Testimony to the last post. My son's team has had a couple guest players in the past. The first was an October tournament. I believe we had 17 on the roster at the time and one of our boys couldn't make it so the coach pulled in a "ringer". Turns out he wasn't the player even the coach thought he was yet was eating up playing time of the other 16 kids. Everyone was pissed. Especially since it didn't help us win anything and we never heard from the kid again.
Second time was an early May tournament. Similar situation, different kid. He played decent but basically he was playing with the understanding that he would most likely be trying out to play on the team the next year. Well, he's still on the team. In both cases, it didn't help the team much but in the second, the players and parents were a little more understanding because you knew it was for the future instead of just about winning for the moment.
Based on those experiences, if it was a fall tournament and it took playing/development time away from a current player (which it always does) I would be very upset. If it was late spring and the season was wrapping up, I still wouldn't be overly happy but I can see the point of it.
My son has been through the guest experience on just about all levels...he's had guests join his team to help pad a thin squad and has also had real impact players come for a visit. On the flip side, he's also been a guest himself in both of these capacities. After watching all this, I see both clear positives and real negatives to guests.
My crazy idea is that all guests should have to come from a younger age group. This wouldn't stop teams from padding a short roster with some temporary help. But it would lessen the possibility of an "impact" guest having a significant influence on a game's/tournament's result.
Would a guest player even fit into a team with really good chemistry and a well trained scheme? You can't imagine a guest playing on Barcelona can you?
With all due respect to the boys and their coaches, I haven't seen any teams in this age group playing with such a well trained and complex scheme that a capable guest couldn't blend in rather seamlessly.
My son's received on field instruction by some players on the good teams he's guested with. For teams that know they must talk, it's not that hard for a capable player to get in step pretty quickly.
Good topic btw!
What happened to PDA Rooney? They haven't been relevant in almost a year. I assume they will get smoked by Princeton Black this weekend. That will leave them near the bottom of EDP and well out of the top 10 in NJ. What's going on?
All respect given. You are right on the money and good luck to you and you're son.
The Year End GS#1 ranking for NJ is still in doubt as we head towards Thanksgiving!
But the picture now looks a little clearer and the result appears to hinge on two factors. The first of these is the result of the final EDP league match between Princeton Black and PDA Rooney and the other is whether GotSoccer is going to keep or do away with the point awards they've made for the CJYSA league.
If Princeton Black can beat Rooney and the CJYSA points stay, they will finish the year as NJ's #1.
But if Black stubs their toe against PDA (and the CJYSA points stay), then EBSC will end the season on top.
But if the CJYSA points go away (which we all know would be the right thing to do), then Gottschee will finish first.
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with these CJYSA points as they affect more than just NJ teams. For example, Baltimore Celtic has pushed up to #3 in the country on the wings of nearly 11,000 double dip points from EDP and CYJSA.
How about East Brunswick? They are up to #6 in the nation and #1 in NJ with the double dip points when they should be a few thousand behind Princeton and Gottschee just in NJ (both of whom beat them last weekend).
You're right. These CJYSA points are distorting the national rankings! Does anyone know why it exists? It looks like the CJYSA league exists only on paper. There were no separate games for CJYSA. They just double counted a subset of EDP games and called it a separate league. That shouldn't get points awards.
8,000 point flight value for CJYSA? ...and I don't even have to play any extra games for it? It's raining points and they're free!
How can I carve out a whole new league from some of my games for spring and get the points? I think I could come up with a better name than CJYSA too. How about the DOGS (Dupe On Got Soccer) League? In fact, why stop at one extra league? I want to carve out 2 or 3 more and really max out our points. Seriously...who can help me?
I've been recently correcting fellow parents that our boys are top "X" in the nation in points. Not necessarily the "X" best team in the nation. There's a big difference. Stupid things like this CJYSA double point counting just validates my point even more.
I'lll start by stating that I'm NOT an EBSC parent.
EB's loss to Princeton and Gotschee last week does not mean they are inferior or should not rank higher. The points system is only ONE measure of a team's performance and is more reflective of a team's ability to consistently win games and tournaments which award points. Teams who can do this consistently usually have the talent to continue to win and therefore gain GS points.
Does winning the state cup make DOL better than any of the top 5 teams in the state?
I don't think so......
So don't translate one loss or two losses to a team not deserving a higher rank.
Nobody said they are inferior. EBSC is double counting almost 5K points and that is why they do not deserve a higher rank.
I'll flip that around. Do you really think all these teams double counting points deserve their recently inflated national rank? Other teams across the nation don't get points for two leagues when they only played one set of games. Is EBSC really #6 in the country based on strength of play? Or Marlboro #10...Gottschee Roma #12? They're all good, but that's still a bit of a stretch.
Did PDA beat Princeton?
November 13, 2013 at 10:31 PM
"With their bracket in the top flight at the Bethesda tournament including VA's Arlington Eagles and MD's Olney Rangers (along with a team from IL), am I the only one thinking the Gunners may be in for some very tough turkey this Thanksgiving?"
Let's just say I had a hunch about this one.
Saturday's results:
Arlington Eagles 4 - 0 Gunners
Lyons Township 3 - 0 Gunners
Olney's up tomorrow morning and then that long ride home.
At least the 2nd flight in Bethesda is looking good for NJ!
TSF needs just a draw with Loudoun Red tomorrow to get through to the final. And there's a good chance they'll get either Mt. Olive or Princeton Orange there if they do. An all NJ final would be nice, even if it is the 2nd flight.
And in the 3rd flight Morris Utd. (remember them?) is on track to reach the final.
So not too bad of a showing for NJ after all.
Princeton Black won 1-0.
With Princeton Black's win over PDA in the books, the year end GS #1 picture now hinges only on the inclusion (or exclusion?) of the CJYSA "league" points.
If I've got this right, CJYSA points included would leave Princeton Black at #1 with EBSC 2nd and Gottschee 3rd.
If CJYSA is taken out then it looks like Gottschee first, PB second and EB third.
So I think it's down to just Princeton and Gottschee at this point with Marlboro finishing 4th regardless.
Looks like there'll be a new #1 in the National Ranks once the Bethesda tournament is awarded.
How good are the Arlington Eagles?
They blew through the top flight this weekend with only the IL team playing them close. And their 4-0 bashing of Fewster in the final was the exclamation point!
This team won at Delco, were semi-finalists at the Capital Cup, won the top flight at the EDP Cup and have now won at Bethesda. That's one heck of a fall season!
Arlington Eagles Red always a top notch team. Look like they are even stronger now.
Good showing for Morris Utd. The other NJ teams came up a little short, but Mt Olive and TSF walk away with points.
The CJYSA League points situation sure is an inconsistent mess!
If you take a look at the Gunners you will see that they are currently receiving a "double dip" of EDP 2nd Division points along with CJYSA points. But the other Stallions team (99/00 Boys), who are in the same EDP Division, are only getting EDP points and none for CJYSA.
Mount Olive, who are not in EDP, are playing in MAPS (which is also being duplicated as a CJYSA league). And while they are 1st in their CJYSA league (flight value of 2188), they have not been awarded any of the 1727 points that are listed as available to them for this.
To top it all off, a number of bonus points for EDP wins and draws have not been awarded properly. EBSC and Marlboro are each due 10 points for unrewarded draws. Princeton Black has 50 points due for a win and 2 draws. And Gottschee has all 110 points they earned for 3 wins and 2 draws due.
I've got to think that GS will eventually delete the CJYSA points from EDP teams and that the bonus points will eventually be straightened out. And assuming these both come to pass, here are what I think will be the final totals for the Top 4 on December 31:
1 / BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99 / 24299
2 / PRINCETON FC BLACK / 23444
3 / EAST BRUNSWICK UNITED FC / 21131
4 / MARLBORO SA GALAXY BLUE / 18111
November 17, 2013 at 8:57 PM
NJ U14 Rankings
1. BSM Gottschee 24.2
2. Princeton Black 23.9
3. EBSC 21.1
4. Marlboro 17.6
I would also say that whomever posted the numbers before the dust had even settled on the MAPS Challenge last week was remarkably accurate!
And I'd like to add that just beyond the top four would be the Stallions Academy 99/00's. As the only team in the current top 10 not receiving double points due to the EDP/CJYSA they are the most harmed in the rani9hgs.
According to my calculations the double dip by all others is costing them 5th place. If you removed all the CJYSA points from the eight teams ranked above them they'd easily be at #5. Not bad for a team ranked somewhere around 35+ just more than a year ago. Too look at their win-loss record against great, good, and average teams I guess I see why.
Here are the "Double Dip" leaders amongst the top 25:
1 / EAST BRUNSWICK UNITED FC / 4475
2 / NJ STALLIONS ACADEMY GUNNERS / 4411
3 / MARLBORO SA GALAXY BLUE / 3985
4 / HADDONFIELD SC BLACK DAWGS / 3546
5 / SOUTH JERSEY ELITE BARONS '99 / 3458
6 / IRONBOUND SC NAVIGATORS / 2848
7 / MOUNT LAUREL UNITED GLADIATORS / 2665
8 / PRINCETON FC BLACK / 2419
9 / SFL TITANS / 1936
10 / DEPTFORD FC PREMIER SDS DRAGONS / 1708
11 / TSF ACADEMY 99/00 / 1594
12 / PDA JINKY / 610
13 / BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99 / 461
14 / PRINCETON FC TOTTENHAM / 247
15 / NJ STALLIONS ACADEMY 99/00 BOYS / 0
16 / DEN OF LIONS MUSTANGS / 0
17 / NEW JERSEY FORCE ARSENAL / 0
18 / PDA ROONEY / 0
19 / PARSIPPANY SC CREW / 0
20 / WESTFIELD SA FC PREMIER COSMOS / 0
21 / PDA 1999 PRE-ACADEMY / 0
22 / JERSEY SHORE BOCA JR FC JUNIORS / 0
23 / VISTULA FC VISTULA DRAGONS / 0
24 / MOUNT OLIVE PREMIER EVERTON / 0
25 / PRINCETON SA PREMIER 99/00 ORANGE / 0
The numbers above indicate the CJYSA points currently awarded in addition to EDP points.
So EBSC played again over last weekend at the Lower Merion tournament? And got nothing out of it?
This one was well off my radar. But it looks like Lower Merion ran an event with 10 U14 teams (well, 9 U14 teams and 1 U13 squad) all in one bracket. Two groups of 3 and a third group of 4? And then they put their own team in a group of 3 along with Pachuca and EBSC? I guess no one can accuse them of taking the easy route, eh?
EBSC drew with both Pachuca and Lower Merion before pounding the U13 boys in a consolation match.
Pachuca was the real winner though, beating Northport in the final and pushing themselves up to #8 in the country with the 6,200 point bonanza!
This is the same tournament that the Gunners cashed in on last fall. The U13s chip in to keep the flight values so high, making Lower Merion the capital of "Low Hanging Fruit!"
Too bad the draw they got raised the branch too high for EBSC!
Turns out EBSC did get something out of the Lower Merion tournament. Not only did the gett 20 bonus points for their two draws against U14 teams, but they totaled an "impressive" 405 points for beating up on the U13 boys. 300 for a 200+ Pts. opponent, 75 for beating a state champ and 30 for winning the game.
Points earned by beating younger age groups have always been wrong in my book.
While I would encourage good teams to play up in tournaments, GotSoccer should deal with this a lot better.
"GotSoccer should deal with this a lot better. "
And over time, I bet they will. GotSoccer is a work in progress that is off to a very good start in my eyes. A lot of improvements have already been implemented and I expect many more are to come.
In the future, I'm guessing teams that play up a year will do so only with a percentage of their points applied. This pertains to both in flighting and bonus points as well.
It just ain't right for a U 14 team to move up in the GS rankings because they whooped a U13 team!
They'll fix this sooner or later.
If teams playing up feel they can compete, why should they be treated differently?
Teams that play up usually are top in their age group and can beat many teams in the older age group. However, if they face teams in the older bracket who are top in that age bracket, they will get whooped.
They want to play with the big boys, then let them put up points into the tournament pool!
Would you say it's fair that a top ranked younger team beat up on a low ranked older bracket team?
It's all a petty argument.
Here's a scenario that has happened in the past:
Highly ranked Team A goes to a tournament featuring many of the top ranked teams in their age group and strings together 4 tough wins to earn the championship.
Highly ranked Team B manages to nudge their way into a tournament featuring a few highly ranked teams playing up from a younger age groups. Team B pounds their younger competition (as they should based on their age advantage) and wins one tough match against their own age group to win the championship.
Both teams earn the same reward for their victories.
You think this is petty?
I think this is a serious flaw in GS's methods and considerably lessens the reliability of their rankings.
Regarding younger teams playing up against competition they can handle, who cares? It's has no negative effect on GS rankings and has nothing to do with the concern.
Maybe it was a lucky bonanza a year ago, but if you missed the same opportunity this year then that's your problem. No luck involved. EBSC and Pachuca didn't miss the chance!
I think you're missing my point.
It's not about taking advantage of the opportunity or missing a chance to do so. It's about GS's failure to properly deal with highly ranked teams playing up by treating them as though they've earned their accomplishments at the older age group's level. The mistake is GS's, not any of the teams that are able to take advantage of it.
And the solution could be as simple as dividing points earned by a younger team in half when they play up (with no bonus points awarded to older teams for beating them).
This would allow younger teams to benefit from playing up and beating older teams but would lessen the impact younger teams have on a flight's value as well as the benefit older teams earn from beating them.
Looks like the CJYSA points have gone away.
So unless they reappear or there are still some unforeseen points ops laying in the weeds, the year end final top 25 looks like this:
1 / 24769 / BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99
2 / 23444 / PRINCETON FC BLACK
3 / 21961 / EAST BRUNSWICK UNITED FC
4 / 17751 / MARLBORO SA GALAXY BLUE
5 / 14629 / NJ STALLIONS ACADEMY 99/00 BOYS
6 / 13060 / HADDONFIELD SC BLACK DAWGS
7 / 12475 / IRONBOUND SC NAVIGATORS
8 / 12072 / DEN OF LIONS MUSTANGS
9 / 12035 / SOUTH JERSEY ELITE BARONS '99
10 / 9996 / NEW JERSEY FORCE ARSENAL
11 / 9340 / TSF ACADEMY 99/00
12 / 9104 / NJ STALLIONS ACADEMY GUNNERS
13 / 9055 / PDA ROONEY
14 / 8754 / SFL TITANS
15 / 8117 / DEPTFORD FC PREMIER SDS DRAGONS
16 / 8029 / PARSIPPANY SC CREW
17 / 7775 / WESTFIELD SA FC PREMIER COSMOS
18 / 7413 / MOUNT OLIVE PREMIER EVERTON
19 / 7290 / PRINCETON FC TOTTENHAM
20 / 7005 / MOUNT LAUREL UNITED GLADIATORS
21 / 6552 / PDA 1999 PRE-ACADEMY
22 / 5892 / PRINCETON SA PREMIER 99/00 ORANGE
23 / 5310 / JERSEY SHORE BOCA JR FC JUNIORS
24 / 4918 / VISTULA FC VISTULA DRAGONS
25 / 4483 / PDA JINKY
I was just going to make a comment on how EBSC is the new #1 and how short lived Princeton Black's stay at the top spot was (~1 day). I guess things are changing too fast to even keep up with comments on it. The rankings have changed yet again. Who will be #1 next week?
NJ Stallions 99/00 in the top 5. That is an awesome fall for those guys! ...and they just lost to NJ Force Arsenal at MAPS Challenge who breaks into the top 10 for season end. Also fantastic. We have a fair number of new names in the top 10 this fall replacing some of the old U12,U13 benchmarks. Aside from EBSC and Marlboro who keep impressively chugging forward, I think 8 out of 10 are new names in the top 10 this year.
I thin the Black Dawgs might have been in the top 10 at the end of last fall too, right?
But even if so, your point about the big turnover in top 10 teams is well taken.
And regarding the recent bevy of changes at the top off the rankings, I really think they are done now.
Most of the GS points for the top teams were achieved over the summer when these teams were playing against poor summer select teams. Don't put much credit in the rankings.
"Most of the GS points for the top teams were achieved over the summer when these teams were playing against poor summer select teams. Don't put much credit in the rankings."
Where did you come up with this? Did you just make it up? Cause it's definitely well off the mark for the top 4 teams (at least).
Gottschee earned some points this past July and August beating teams like LDC, SJEB, Pachuca and Baltimore Celtic.
Princeton Black earned some by beating teams like Haddonfield, SJEB, Gottschee Roma and LDC.
EBSC and Marlboro earned some at their own tourneys in August beating up on each other as well as teams like Gottschee and the Gunners.
Besides, "poor summer select teams" don't offer much to flight values so they actually limit the amount of points to be earned.
I saw all four of these teams play at least two or three times this past July and August and can assure you that none of them spent their summer mopping up weak competition.
10:22 you are incorrect. Yes they might have played 1 of those teams in their journey to points but played 2 sometimes 3 summer select teams to get to the championship. In addition, most of the time they played with guest players. Summer points should not count or at least we should all recognize that the GS rankings are a skewed mess.
Perhaps you can identify some of the "summer select" teams you are referring to. And please do point out occasions where any of these teams played 2 or 3 of them on their way to tournament championships. Take a look at the teams who were at the Mid Atlantic (where Gottschee and Princeton Black played) or at Spirit Utd. where these two and EBSC played. Are you trying to claim these were filled with weak teams? And you seem to be missing the point regarding a team's contributions to flight values. If a tournament is filled with weak teams, there's not much reward for a strong one.
Your thought about guest players may hold some water for some of these teams. Particularly PB and EBSC. But that's the nature of most tournaments these days so I can't see why the summer months would be any different.
And the GS rankings are what they are, regardless of the time of year. I understand if you don't appreciate them. But singling out the summer as the sole reason they don't appeal to you seems way off base to me.
I agree with the last commenter that you can't pluck out certain summer tournaments and say they're not valid. As for GS overall, it's become more of a regional tool than a national one. It's tough to compare teams from states where the top team doesn't even have 1000 points. Here in NJ we're point hogs and we all know it.
We're point hogs in this region because the NYE, NJ, PAE and MD areas with a multitude of tournaments that were the first to buy into GotSoccer big time. And because GS's system awards high team point totals with high flight values when we play each other, the system perpetuates itself quite healthily here.
So yes, I'd agree that GS's value is regional at best but may not even extend beyond the 4 states mentioned above. Well, maybe CT too.
.....and VA. Oh and maybe CA south and north too. ...and...are you serious?
Basically anywhere there is a concentration of youth soccer, there will be significant gotsoccer points. That makes sense. It's a pretty good system. Before it every team claimed some victory or accomplishment on their team website. There was little to no way to tell what that meant among hundreds of events. Now it is much clearer. I would argue GS is far and away the best system there is.
I like GS myself, but...
Of course there are other areas of concentration. But not to the degree we have here.
Of the 15 teams with "Diamond" status (20,000 points or more) nationally, 3 are from NJ. NYE and MD also have 3 each. VA has a pair and both PAE and CT have 1 each.
In other words, 13 of the 15 top ranked teams in the country come from our part of the country. And 19 of the top 25 come from MA down to VA.
So I think it's pretty clear that the NE is the area with the most GS buy in. That may even out over time, but this clearly hasn't happened yet.
One more point about GS's regional vs. national relevance:
Believe it or not, Region 3 which stretches from the Carolinas down to Florida and west to Texas and Oklahoma is the most populated of the 4 national regions. So I would think there are plenty of youth soccer players there. FC Dallas has a team that is ranked 3rd in Region 3 and that may well be very fair. But this same team is also ranked 67th in the country and I think we all know that doesn't sound right.
GS is a good approach to ranking teams on the state and maybe even regional levels. But definitely not on the national level
That isn't a fault in gotsoccer per se. It just reflects the fact that youth soccer is almost entirely regional. How many national events did your team play this year?
Maybe they could bump the value of really good teams with less regional competition. That is hard. I'm not sure how you would do it.
Has the dust finally settled? It looks like the best team in NJ at this age group is Gottschee Roma! Congrats to them for getting and holding their #1 ranking.
The best or has the most points now? Good team, yes but lets not act like they are above all.
Serious? Above it all? Gottschee isn't undefeated or close to that mark and even if a team is undefeated I would be hard pressed to say they are above anyone. That's not what I am saying at all.
I am just congratulating a team on a great year. They have been the best of 2013 and earned the #1 spot over some tough competition and they started the year from well outside the top 10 . Now that winter ball is here again I remember comments on this board last winter pooh poohing Gottschee Roma's wins against Millburn and EBSC and a Redbull and TSF team as meaningless. I think it's safe to say those comments were wrong.
Funny you remember the arguments about those indoor tournaments last winter (although those debates were on the old board as this one didn't exist at the time.)
But yes, some folks were saying those indoor 7v7 results against quality teams were a sign that Gottschee would be a team to be reckoned with in 2013. And there were plenty of naysayers claiming these results meant absolutely nothing and that anyone who thought they might was an idiot.
I'm was quite happy to have been an "idiot" back then and remain so today!
It was quite a year though with the rise of Gottschee, the fall of the Titans and Rooney, the invasion of Princeton Black, the changing of the guard for the Stallions, the rise and fall of Ironbound, the returns of EBSC and Marlboro, the howl of the Back Dawgs and the incredible Den of Lions State Cup win.
I'm sure there are plenty of other developments, but these are the ones that come to mind first for me.
Any others?
What are the indoor choices being made by top U 14 teams?
Is "The Fields" in East Brunswick a good way to go?
Any other good ideas?
NJ Stallions 99/00 team not so impressive when faced with tough competition.
Lost all three games at nationals in Florida!
A dose of reality will serve them well......
Even in Florida, they brought their "A" kick 'n run game!
Funny because every other team brought guest players and NJstallions didnt get to bring are full team due to rules. They lost all three games in the last 2 minutes against teams you guys would probably get your ass kicked. But while we're playng in florida in 80 degree weather you're in your basement making comments about our team anonomyously.
Please keep the comments clean. Good luck to everyone in Florida representing NJ!
Well it looks like all the NJ teams are out in our age group. Parsippany made it to the semis, but lost to Gottschee Super Y. NJ Stallions and Cedar Stars did not make it out of group stage. Overall, our region is showing well. Cedar Stars are in the U12 finals. Gottschee is in the U13 and U14 finals.
Why are the U14 teams playing U13?
because they played u13 in the summer
Good answer. My apologies for not knowing. Is it a candar year thing?
Do you mean calendar?
yes it is i think all the kids in florida are u14
For all of you point trackers, put this in your abacus.
http://supery.uslsoccer.com/home/773676.html
Gottschee wins the U13 and U14 Boys Super Y championships in FL. Congrats!
Now that they are awarding points for the Super Y League Finals it looks like Gottschee and Parsippany have a fair amount of points coming their way. Many of these Super Y teams are a mix of teams and do not have any points to be had. For example, at U12 it doesn't look like much of any teams bring points other than Cedar Stars so CSA may not get anything for making it to the finals. At our age group, U13, a lot of regular teams, mostly from our area, did go and they should bring a lot of points with them. Parsippany, TSF, NJ Stallions, Patriot FC, Gottschee.
This could completely change the landscape of Super Y for 2014! It will be interesting to watch.
I thought that Super Y age groups were based on calendar year like Academies. Is this correct?
If so, the GotSoccer implications are interesting as they may start awarding apples to oranges.
Composition
Boys/Girls
U12 (players born on/after 8/1/00)
U13 (players born on/after 8/1/99)
U14 (players born on/after 8/1/98)
U15 (players born on/after 8/1/97)
U16 (players born on/after 8/1/96)
U17 (players born on/after 8/1/95)
Just to clear any confusion. Super Y is not based on calendar year. They run the same dates that club teams do, but our U14 is U13 for them.
That's because this is primarily a summer league. You know that time when most players take off and spend time with their families? GS for this will change the whole landscape of this into another super competitive venture and ruin it.
Most of the teams across the country that do this coble teams together from players in their area who are interested in playing a little over the summer. In my opinion, comparing these summer rec teams to the full squads during the season are comparing apples and oranges. Ridiculous.
Thanks for the clarification on the Super Y ages. I think I got confused because the NYCSL league that Parsippany plays in is based on calendar year.
So does this mean that the pre-August 99's that play for Parsippany (assuming they have some) were not eligible for the Super Y competition? That would be a weird situation I think, to tell some of your players that your entering into a competition they too old to play in?
I really think they ought to get rid of the August - July set up across the board and go with calendar years for al age groups.
gotchee and Parsipanny relied greatly on guest players with 2 nj stallions gunners on parsipanny an a good amount of queens acadmey players on gotchee
Would have been interesting had Parsippany and the Stallions made the final with Parsippany using some of their opponent's club mates as guests.
Isn't the Queens academy players the same Gottschee team? They're based in Queens, NY, so if they use the academy players, then that's the same club? And if I understand correctly, this is not a regular team; it's a team made up of players to play in the 'summer league'.
so how can they be 'guest players'?
The team they used throughout the summer was with no acadmey players then they added 4-5 players from acadmey which 3 are top players in the country
I think the team they had in the summer had a few academy players on it, but in no way was it the academy team. Like most Super Y, it was a mix of different teams just from the same club in their case.
As for Parsippany, I think they were there with a few age groups including the next year up at U14. I'm sure the crossover kids (Jan -Aug 99) just played with the older team.
summer is the time to be with your families is what a poster wrote. True, it is, and some of the best memories I have with my son are at and after these tournaments. Sooooooo, your point?
11;42 No you ar wrong i played them in super y then watched them play in florida and were a completley different team almost
10:55PM. They did have a few academy players in summer. Just wasn't an academy team. That is not wrong. Maybe they did look different in FL. It happens I guess. Look at PDA. They won last year's NPL championship at U13 by bringing a player down from another PDA team. That's one advantage of a big academy.
Understanding there's no action going on currently, I still never get tired looking at GS's U14 NJ ranks these days!
BSM Gottschee Roma is sitting on top there and it looks mighty nice for a team that was on the 2nd page at this time last year!!!
Spoken like a proud Gottschee parent. Enjoy the winter break because it will be a battle come spring.
Did anyone see the Massapequa College Showcase last weekend? It looks like a lot more competition this year with #1 and #2 in NYE playing. A pretty good line-up especially for December! Dix Hills won after getting one of those easier byes into the finals while other group winners played each other.
I didn't think there were any tourneys this late in the year.
There are some good indoor tourneys at our age like the one recently at TSF. Gottschee had one last weekend. The same team won both. City FC. Very talented group and good soccer to watch.
I'm curious what is going to happen during our January transfer window. Any notable player movements?
It looks like everyone has a lot of catching up to do to get even with East Brunswick before the end of spring.
Before the end of the spring there could be many changes, no doubt.
But who's on top all winter?
You know, and I do too...
As much as many USSDA clubs try, most fall woefully short in coaching, player id, player development, player release, sticking to a philosophy. The USSDA club we are at is no different than any other more competitive club. Marginal difference in player ability. No difference in coaching. Unfortunately the USSDA moniker is more a bragging right. We often play against non-Academy teams and many times they outplay us. Better coached, better passing, smarter players, but not necessarily better players.
Happy New Year!
Looks like an interesting group forming for Annandale. 5 NJ teams so far. Any more plan on applying before the 15th?
Appears to be some good northeastern teams applied as well as teams as far away as Michigan, Ohio and Canada coming over. Top bracket or two should score well once again.
We often play against non-Academy teams and many times they outplay us. Better coached, better passing, smarter players, but not necessarily better players.
Oh really?
Who are these teams that a DA would scrimmage? Been around several DAs for a very long time and have never heard of DA/non-DA scrimmages.
Sounds like we have a non-DA parent claimng to be a DA LOL!!
How's Jefferson Cup shaping up? It looks like Annandale will score well once again. Some of the top teams are entered and points will be won.
Jeff Cup was much stronger than Annandale last year. Truth is the teams from further south were better...not sure why.
Maybe because our teams are sometimes over-hyped?? Nawwww that can't be it.
I find it commical that Annandale and Jefferson Cups are always on the same weekend and they battle over who has the stronger field of teams.
Seems like a trend is developing with Annandale and the Jeff Cup with more of the top NE teams going to Annandale and the Jeff Cup attracting teams from further south.
Both should be very good tournaments.
Here's the top fight at the Jeff Cup (as tweeted a few days ago):
BSM Gottschee Roma / NJ
Chicago Blast Academy / IL
Empire Revolution (Roc) / NYW
FSA Navy / CT
Lexington FC White / KY
MD Rush / MD
Mt. Olive / NJ
Mt. Pleasant / TXN
Northern Steel Bayern / PAW
OCYS Purple / FL
Penn Fusion / PAE
Real Colorado Nat / CO
Richmond Strikers / VA
SYA Cardinals Rd / VA
Tennessee 18 / TN
WAZA FC / MI
Here is the championship flight.
I like how the tournament looks beyond just the points and put the best teams from around the country in this top flight. I think Jefferson is often more about good competition whereas Annandale feels like it can be more about the points.
It doesn't look like AC has their brackets out but last year 7 of their top 8 teams were from our Region. Looking at this only 3 of the 8 are. I like seeing teams facing teams they wouldn't otherwise ever get a chance to play.
TENNESSEE SC 18 (TN)
OCYS 99/00B PURPLE (FL)
PENN FUSION SA '99 BOYS (PAE)
REAL COLORADO NATIONAL 99/00 (CO)
BSM GOTTSCHEE ROMA '99 (NJ)
CHICAGO BLAST ACADEMY (IL)
FSA FC U14 BOYS NAVY (CT)
SC UNITED FC - MOUNT PLEASANT SCU/MP 99 ELITE (SC)
We've played both and both are good tournaments. I don't totally agree with your analysis but can see your point at least this year.
If FSA doesn't win I'll be surprised.
Does anyone know what's going on at Marlboro? Heard from a parent or two that some players and parents aren't happy with what's going on.
Marlboro is fine. Don't start trolling until at least March when people pay attention.
Did everyone give up soccer? Where is every body?
Just hibernating I suppose. Although the action is about to start heating up (even if the weather is not).
Does anyone know when they will post the brackets for the Manhattan Tourney. I don't know how you can make hotel reservations not knowing where you will be playing.
Can someone from the Manhattan Spring Kick Off please address the protocol for below freezing temperatures forecast for next weekend. Your website has a weather protocol that states temperature below 32 degrees would only allow a player to be outside for 30 minutes. The forecast is for temperatures around 25 degrees. Is there a current plan to cancel this tournament or postpone it?
I would be shocked of they cancelled or postponed Manhattan. We played last year on colder weather and it snowed.
So I was shocked to see most of the Manhattan tournament is cancelled due to snow on the ground. All these games are played on turf, cant they shovel, plow the fields?
Now the cancelled the whole Manhattan Tournament, another shocker.
Why the changed the brackets at the Maps challenge, East Brunswick don't wants to play Princeton Black???
Gottschee and Parsippany at the Dallas Cup?
Good luck boys!
Stallions seem good so far. Beat East Brunswick and then we will really know if they are the real deal! Also, Gotsoccer seems to have the fight values all at 0. This will soon change and expect some changes in the rankings!
Good aggressive match between EB and NJ Stallions.
EBSC wins 3-1!
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